Green River knives?

[darbyfett]

When I was hassling James a few weeks ago, he recommended I. Wilson knives. However, all I can find on ebay are worn out, huge butcher knives. Could modern Green River knives work?

How about some pictures of your knife sets?

[jameshunt]

There were other knife makers during our era, English, German and American. Two prominent American makers of skinning and butcher knives were there: Harrington and Russel. As most know the Green River refers to Massachusetts and not Wy-CO-UT and the Green River knife was popular (probably because it was cheap) from the late 1830's on. I. Wilson was an English company who was a very prolific maker and whose knives were shipped west by the fur companies of an earlier era, and who remained popular into the 20th century I believe.

The now Dexter-Russel knife company still makes the Green River Knife of the same general shape as their old knives, and from TOW or Dixie you can buy their blanks if you want to make one. The latter may be a better choice, as the new ones have handles, rivets and pins that just don't look correct when compared to the old ones. Moreover, I think the steel they use now has a stainless component. I have had a couple and when I tried to age the most recent, I can not get bluing, browning or soaking them in vinegar or any thing else to take well. New out of the box, they just don't seem to look correct.

Another thing about the current Green River is they etch the makers mark on rather than stamp it. I guess you can just sand that out if you can successfully age it. I have a nice ripping knife - that probably has some great stainless steel in the blade, because no matter what I do it still looks like stainless steel beneath my attempts.

Ebay is a good source for old knives, and many I.Wilsons are there. They can be pricey, but you can occasionally get a good deal. I think I have most of mine from gun shows, and trade shows. Depending on the knife you can get a late 18th century skinning I. Wilson for $5 - $10 dollars, but a pre-1840 will be upwards of $40. But I think all in all, a good deal on a 100% correct blade can be had.

But you find many old knives where use has worn off the makers mark and these often go for less than $8. I would not worry about a worn butcher or skinner, I am sure a half season in the field, constantly being sharpened on a grinding wheel quickly wore down the blade. So, I just look for a half tang knife, pinned with five or more pins with a blade shape you want. And, you have an old knife correct for your skinning endeavors.

Below is my collection. The one on the bottom is so worn it has no makers mark. The one with the rivets is German, Henckels which was a company that sold knives during the period. The flat sided steel is unmarked but old, I have a picture of one similar used by a hunter. All the rest are I. Wilson. All for a few bucks with the exception of the large butcher which was pre-1840.



Be patient, attend a few gun shows, pre-1840 trade shows and these things turn up. Brass has a dandy collection if he sees this, I hope he does and can post an image.

[darbyfett]

Shame about the Green River steel. I have a patch knife from a few years ago that took on a great patina.

I really need to get out to the antique stores and gun shows, there are some I Wilsons on ebay, but they are running $80+.

So for a set I know I would need a Skinner, steel. Would the third be a small butcher?

[brass]

Darby F – Indeed, the good Mr Hunt is wise and knowledgeable in many areas and period knives is certainly amongst them. I’ve posted my paltry collection of knives below – and one of the finest amongst them is a nice 5 pin handle butcher from the good Mr Hunt. Regarding your knife set, you’ll need a skinning knife, a steel, and a ripping (aka ‘sticking’) knife. As for cost of these items I won’t pay more than $25 for any of them and occasionally happen upon them. Also, it has been my experience that finding the spear-tipped looking ripping knife will be the biggest challenge in assembling your set. Finding these seem to be like finding hen’s teeth for whatever reason.



I can add nothing to what Mr Hunt has posted though I am adding a photo of most of my period commercial hunting knives here (apologies for the rest of the stuff in the picture but it’s the only photo I have handy of my knives). Of particular interest are the steels. Two of the three above are I. Wilson and have provenance in a couple period references in my library: the top steel is illustrated in a c1845 English tool catalog and the bottom in an 1884 hardware catalog ( a late reference but still excellent). With each of these steels the handles are identical to the period references – this is rather an unusual thing to come across in my experience. The steel in the middle is a flat-side type and I know through Mr Hunt such steels are not only very period but an earlier style and not too easy to find.

Another thing of interest in this photo are my co-called “Ulu” type skinning knives. Those pictured here are a fairly close match to that shown on page 83 Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters & Skinners Vol I (A-D). As with that pictured in the book those shown above are very stout and intended for hard use, unlike the easier to find but less robust similarly styled victorian era veggie choppers. Such skinning related tools are important for my primary historic impression as a skinner (and also camp cook), got to have skinners along with the shooters. So Mr Hunt and I make a good team of hunter & skinner and are standardized on the .50-70 cartridge as a team. I’m the main skinner though have my .50-70 Springfield trapdoor for camp and in case the buffalo are thick, getting stands is easy, and I need to whack a few too.

Brass

[buckskin billy]

very nice collection of knives james and brass. thanks for sharing. great information to know for those of us who are building up are persona.
very interesting to know that the ulu was in use during our time. i'm making a trade with a fellow, and i'm receiving a ulu and a few other things in this trade, not sure if its exactly like the ones pictured, but they are easy enough to reproduce on a forge.
i may drift off subject here a little but i would like to know more about your cartridge belt. particularly how wide is it. i will make me one here real soon, but i'm leaning towards a double tongue belt. i'm not sure of the common width of these belts during our time . as well as the width of the cartridge loops. do they cover most of the bullet case?

[Boot]

Here's my skinning set.

Boot.

Attachments:

[Boot]

Goods that bear the country of origin are generally post 1890. Presedent McKinnley insisted that all U.S. imports bore the country of origin. Therefore England on the blade of a knife denotes post 1890.
In all my years of collecting knives, I've never found a Wilson without England on the blade.
Also, I was always of the opinion that all early "Butcher" type knives had four or five small iron rivets, however there was an old Gree River knife on board the Arabia with only two large brass rivets.

Boot.

[Boot]

Arabia knife 1856.

Boot.

Attachments:

[jameshunt]

Boot: interesting.

I hope this pdf of a 1831 printing helps in identifying the marks on I.Wilson knives. I's finding is the product of someone else's work, not mine and I appreciated it. It has helped me greatly in looking at these knives. Again, these stampings are from an earlier era than ours. It was my understanding that the Sycamore street stamping beneath the old mark denoted a later knife, after 1840.

www.scandinavianmountainmen.se/includes/misc/johnwilsonmarks1831.pdf

I have labored back and forth regarding the "Sheffield England" stamp with some writers insisting as Boot describes this denotes a Mckinley or later period. Others imply that the "Sheffield England" stamp was used prior to this by some cutlers. Most I. Wilson's I have seen have country of origin, which would make sense as later knives survive longer than earlier ones.

Note that in the 1831 article there is no country of origin stamp - although often I. Wilsons have the country of origin stamped well off to the side. These seem to be the ones that do not have the Sycamore street address. The Sycamore st. Address seems to be a part of the primary stamp always with "Sheffield England" below it.

Although not a fan of sketch books it is interesting that the buffalo hunters sketchbook has drawings of Wilson knives from who know where - yet they lack the country of origin.

But I agree, to not have a country of origin mark would indicate possibly a very early knife - and consequently if the seller knows what they are doing they soak you up to $40 or more for a decent size butcher.

Most Wilson knives I have seen are all pinned, including my early one. The large handled butchers with six pins, the smaller skinners with five.

Does anyone know about country of origin on steels? The only Wilson steel I have is stamped I.Wilson with "cast steel" below it, no country of origin. Someone appears to have pounded a horn grip on it. it appears old but not original.

I found the above pdf interesting - great primary source.

[Boot]

Thanks for the link. As far as I'm aware the country of origin applies to all import goods, knife steels being no exception.
Although it is possible that country of origin did appear on some pre 1890 knives, I've never seen it on one that was nefinatley from then.

Boot.

[lady bear]

Hi , I don't collect knives however I have recently found a I.wilson knife with the acorn and diamond as well as what looks like shear steel enclosed and that is all no other marks 6 nails or pin in the handle..... I found it in my boyfriends grandfathers shed they are Native American anyway does the marking mean it is pre 1890 s ? Great full for any info was going to clean it up and give it to him for Christmas more info would be AWSOME ! 
                   Thank you Lady Bear

[Gabrielbuils]

t.me/Dating_Flirting - Sex without obligation in your city - bit.ly/34RxuK7